SickSick

aekara1921 έγραψε: mias kai einai thinking player to megalo tou pleonektima tha einai na metafrazei tis energeies sou. simfona loipon meauta pou elege o gordon mia kali stratigiki apenanti se tetoious paixtes einai na kaneis kati diaforetiko apo auto pou skeftesai san sostoteri kinisi. [/quote:nz1xzd0k] Mbravo aekara, poli swsta arxises to post sou oti auto einai to pleonektima tou thinking player. I sinexia omws gia apantisi tou JustRivered einai oti giauto akrivos ton logo doulevei to GTO enantion thinking player!! Epeidi den exei simasia poso skeftete o antipalos. An diavases to post mou gia to 1card poker game, tha deis oti sto telos o antipalos den exei simasia an kanei call i fold me to KK. Diladi oso kalos kai na einai, den exei simasia! Oso gia to upolipo pou eipes aekara, auto pou isws thelei na pei o gordon einai oti prepei na kaneis disguise to xeri sou epeidi an pe3eis standard tha se valei eukola se range o antipalos. Vevaia auto einai to advanced poker, na 3ereis ti skeftete o antipalos sou gia to xeri sou kai na to ekmetalleuese. Kai gia na to pei se mi-proxorimenous pextes auto o Gordon leei apla na kanoun to antitheto pou tha skeftontan, kanontas etsi pio aprovlepto to pexnidi tous. Ok auto alla enas expert 3erei pote kai giati kanei auto to play anti etsi tixaia.

aekara1921 έγραψε: Em, den eimai sigouros an auto pou ennouse itan auto pou mou eipe kai o harrington oti genika protinei na kaneis to antitheto apoti kanoun oi alloi sto trapezi (dld an pezoun loose na pe3eis pio tight, kai antitheta). Auto exei na kanei ligo me auto pou sizitame gia GTO, afou an oi antipaloi kanoun lathos kai pezoun too loose (or tight), kerdizoume perissotera me tin analogi antitheti prosarmogi sto diko mas pexnidi. Apo tin alli auta pou les meta einai tips pou exoun dosei kapioi pou grafoun vivlia e.g. Kill Phil (den to exw diavasei alla apoti katalavenw peri autou prokeite) gia non-professional pextes na mboroun na exoun kaliteres pithanotites enanti pros. I idea vasika einai to 'big ball' poker me megala bets kai emfasi sto na mboun polla lefta prin to flop. Enta3ei an vretheis pote me ton Phil Ivey sto trapezi auta, alla den prepei na einai o skopos kapiou kalou pexti. Na sou apantisw kai pio sigkekrimena se auta pou les gia hu sngs me high stakes (thinking) players: (Profanos den einai kala na pezeis skopima me kapion hu pou den 3ereis oti eisai kaliteros tou. Moni e3eresi an to kaneis epitides gia ekpedeutikous logous) To poses fores to blind tha kaneis raise preflop kai 3bet preflop apo to BB e3artate prota apola apo to effective stack size (diladi posa big blinds einai to mikrotera apo ta dio stacks). Ena peripou: Eff. Stack........Raise.........Reraise 80 bb+ .............. 3x ............... 10-12x 50-80bb ............ 3x ............... 9x 24-50bb ............ 2.5x ............ 6.5-7x 10-24bb ............ 2x ............. All In 0-10bb ............. All In Se pio advanced epipedo mborei kaneis na exei diaforetika raise amounts gia diaforetika xeria (i kai limp), alla gia na to kanei auto prepi na 3erei giati (na exei sxedio gia kathe hand), kai fisika na einai balanced to kathe range. Twra otan les oti xaramises ta monsters sou, upothetw ennoeis oti ekanes reraise kai ekane o antipalos fold preflop. To oti to ekanes 3x to raise tou einai genika standard, apla etixe na min exei kala filla. To mono omws pou prepei na episimanw einai oti den mboreis na kaneis 3bet mono ta monsters, opws e3igisa sto proigoumeno post enas pextis pou kanei adjust tha to katalavei auto kai tha sou dinei respect. Ti kanoume loipon? Well oi expert players pane level 3 thinking. An exoun pes KK kai 3eroun oti den exoun kanei sxedon katholou 3bet preflop mexri ekeino to simeio kai upologizoun na to prosexei auto o antipalos, tote kanoun mono flat call. Episis apo tin alli, an den exoun kanei katholou 3bet tote tha xrisimopoisoun ena junk xeri gia to proto tous 3bet upologizontas oti tha parei respect kai tha klepsoun to raise tou antipalou.

ImbecIle έγραψε: Yep, oposdipote theoritika mborei na upar3ei. Parto me to pio aplo theoritiko pexnidi poker, opou uparxoun 3 xartia, , kai 2 pextes pou pernei o kathenas apo ena xarti. Kanoun apo ante $1, kai meta o enas apo tous dio (pernoun seira kathe giro) exei tin epilogi na kanei bet $1 kai allos an ginei bet dialegei call/fold (den mborei na kanei raise). Opotan loipon, parolo pou exoun imperfect information oi pextes (den 3eroun to xarti tou antipalou), einai eukolo na vgei to apolito GTO stratigiki. Mboreite na to vgalete monoi sas an thelete san puzzle, allios i apantisi einai edw: Vevaia uparxei tromeri diafora meta3i auto kai kati san 6max NL holdem i akomi xeirotera PLO8, alla theoritika uparxei lisi gia ola ta paixnidia imperfect information.

SamGreek έγραψε: Exeis apolito dikaio me to paradeigma pou les, epeidi pes otan kanei 3bet o antipalos, kaneis panta 4bet me KK,(pes kai AK). Kai episis as upothesoume oti ola ta xeria pou exoun 2 mesa ta kaneis fold se 3bet ektos apo A2s kai 22 An kaneis mono call mia fora anti 4bet, kai erthei flop pou legame, tote o antipalos tha 3erei oti para para polu diskola exeis vrei to flop, kai tha einai anetos me to pes pou exei na parei to pot kai na min fovate raise sto flop (eno allios mborei na mas ekane check to flop me skopo check/call ena street kai decide after). Opotan poly eustoxo auto pou eipes. Den to sizitisa epeidi tha to ekana pio periploko na embena se tetio vathos, alla i pragmatikotita einai oti to alithino GTO einai auto pou legete 'mixed strategy'. Auto simenei oti den tha kanoume panta to idio pragma me to idio xeri stin idia katastasi, alla anti auto uparxei mia GT Optimal %-% isotimia meta3i ton epilogon, e.g. me to mborei na einai 80% 4bet, 20% call, kai to na einai 60% 4bet, 40% call. Auto mborei na exei kai 3 epiloges, gia paradeigma to na einai 10% 4bet, 50% call, 40% fold. Skopos einai to telio balancing twn ranges mas. Episis na pw oti to idio eustathei meta to flop. Polloi tha 3eroun to paradeigma tou river, otan gia paradeigma me pot bet sto river dinoume tou antipalou 2 pros 1 gia to call tou. Auto simenei oti to GTO einai na mblofaroume 1/3 fores ekei, outes oste oute to call oute to fold na apoferoun kerdos ston antipalo. To idio eustathei se ola ta streets. Gia paradeigma sto flop me mikro pair uparxei % raise/ % call. Osoi diavasan to vivlio gia ton Andy Beal pou epeze 100k/200k limit me tous pros tha thimounte oti o Beal prospathouse na pe3ei GTO kai koitouse ton deixti deuterolepton sto roloi tou san randomizing device, e.g. an to GTO pou upologise itan na kanei 75% call kai 25% fold tha ekane call an o deixtis deuterolepton tou itan apo to 12 mexri to 9.

iJustRiveredYou έγραψε: Ena paradeigma: As poume theoritika oti to Game Theory Optimal preflop play gia heads up 100x deep einai: button: 95% raise, 5% fold BB apantisi se raise: 30% 3bet, 30% call, 40% fold button apantisi se 3bet: 20% 4bet, 30% call, 50% fold Auta einai ena peripou vevaia, alla pes ine auto to GTO. Ama pezeis omos me ena antipalo pou sto BB kanei 3bet anti 30% mono to top 8% twn xerion tou, an sinexiseis GTO tha eisai +EV alla tha itan akomi kalitera gia sena na kaneis pes mono 5% 4bet kai 75% fold. Afou 3ereis oti o antipalos exei mono monsters edw, giati na sinexiseis na pezeis balanced se auto to simeio? iJustRiveredYou έγραψε: Αυτα που περιγραφεις στην αρχη για balanced ranges και proper bet sizing δεν ειναι περισσοτερο ABC στο σημερινο poker παρα GTO ομως(με τη λογικη οτι οι περισσοτεροι τα ξερουν και ξερουν οτι και εσυ τα εφαρμοζεις)? Πχ το bet sizing αναλογα με το board texture που λες εμενα μου κανει τρομερα exploitable δηλαδη ας πουμε οτι καθε φορα που μπλοφαρεις πονταρεις το ποτ και καθε φορα που εχεις φυλλο 75% του ποτ ενας καλος παιχτης θα το καταλαβει σχετικα γρηγορα αυτο ετσι δεν ειναι? Edw den katalaves ti ennousa, apodi3i kai sto oti den exei kamia sxesi me ABC poker pou pezete simera. Den ennousa analoga me to board diladi analoga me to ti ktipises sto board. 'Texture' tou board einai mia ekfrasi pou exei na kanei me posa xeria exoun xtipisei to board kai me pio tropo. Diladi kaneis raise, call o antipalos, kai erxete flop Auto fisika einai ena poli dry flop pou liga filla exoun xtipisei. O pextis pou einai piso auti tin stigmi tha exei poli mikro chance na kanei outdraw, einai way ahead/way behind katastasi. Auta ta flops theloun mikra bets, den exoun poli ousia ta megala bets. Se antithesi, se flop Plewn polla xeria exoun xtipisei, kai megala bets einai pio swsta (analoga kai ta stacks panta) epeidi ena mikro bet dinei kala odds se apeira xeria pou mborei na exei o antipalos na sinexisei sto hand. Anyway einai periploko thema to GTO, poly advanced kai diskolo na e3igithei kiolas. Uparxoun para polloi paragontes pou pezoun rolo kai giauto den prokeite na lithei etsi apla to poker.

To ti einai game theory optimal (GTO) einai i pio simantiki erotisi pou uparxei sto poker. Simenei oti pezete mia stratigiki xwris kamia adinamia, opou oti kai na kanei o antipalos den mborei na vgalei kerdos. I kaliteri tou apantisi einai na pe3ei kai autos GTO, ola ta alla einai -EV. Prota apola na poume oti fisika den uparxei twra i lisi gia to ti einai to GTO sto holdem, ite se NL ite se Limit. Pragmati sto Limit HU exoun vgei bots pou pezoun sxetika konta se GTO alla den exoun ftasei kai pezoun me kapoies adinamies akomi. Otan milousa oti mborw na pe3w konta se GTO ennousa aplos oti den uparxoun simantika leaks (adinamies) sto pexnidi mou.. ta ranges mou einai balanced, to bet sizing swsto analoga me board texture, thin value bets, ktl ktl. Simantiki einai i sxesi meta3i game-theory optimal kai exploitative strategy. Otan o antipalos den pezei teleia kai kanei lathoi kapou (e.g. den kanei pote 4bet xwris KK+, den mblofarei arketa, i otidipote allo keno exw sto pexnidi tou), fisika to GTO einai +EV enantia se auton ton pexti, alla se auti tin periptosi i 'teleia' stratigiki den einai kai i pio kerdofora. Me auto ton adinamo antipalo, enas pextis pou feugei apo to GTO kai tin 'swsti' stratigiki gia na epitethei stis adinamies tou antipalou, kanei 'exploit' dld, kai exei pleon akomi pio poly +EV se auti ti periptosi. Polloi petiximenoi MTT'ers, eidika auta ta terastia onomata ston xwro pou kerdizan para polla prin 2+ xronia, den exoun idea apo GTO kai upirxan megales tripes sto pexnidi tous. Apla o tropos pou epezan ekane poly 'exploit' ta lathoi ton antipalwn, alla twra pou ta fields pezoun diaforetika kai exoun klisei kapoies tripes (eidika preflop), den exoun tin idia epitixia. Oi kaliteroi pextes einai autoi pou 3eroun na pe3oun me ena tropo konta se GTO, kai exontas to auto san vasi mboroun analoga na kanoun adjust stous antipalous pou pezoun. Fisika opws eipa omws, to GTO einai kapws theoritiko, kai den uparxei egxiridio na meletithei. Genika omws autoi pou pezoun to pio kontino sto GTO einai autoi sta nosebleed cash games. Opws eipe o iJustRiveredYou, sta low kai mid stakes, akomi kai sta perissotera tournoua, den einai simantiko na 3ereis na pezeis konta se GTO epeidi oi antipaloi kanoun tosa lathoi pou to kalitero pou exeis na kaneis einai na ta kaneis apla exploit.

IDIOTropos έγραψε: Hehe telika auto uperisxise IDIOTropos έγραψε: Kala kaneis pou apofeugeis kapion otan vlepeis oti einai kaliteros sou. Polloi den mboroun na to kanoun i den dexonte oti einai kaliteros o allos. Stin prokeimeni periptosi, den einai oti eniotha -EV me ton antipalo, alla opws eipe o konosz itan i dinamiki me to poly high variance pou pezotan pou ithela na apofigw logo kai poso arga itan. Alla to concept einai to idio, ama den einai to game opws thes min to pezeis.

safesteps έγραψε: Den diafonw, den itan toso to 'ηθικό' κομμάτι' alla i upoxorisi apo ena match pou eixa orisei egw ta stakes :blush:

holdemgr έγραψε: Lol. Skopos mou einai na prosfero mia endiaferon istoria sto forum gia psixaxogia kai sizitisi, profanos den einai brag.. brag einai to $72k pot mou pou ekana post prin kana mina Tha apantisw stous allous kai tha milisw kai ligo gia game theory optimal afou uparxei endiaferon

Sinolo prepei na pe3ame kana dekapentalepto. Tou protina sto telos anti gia na to girisoume se 8gm hu, mexri kai 400-800, alla epemena gia nl kai efiga..

Erxomai spiti apo to sinema kai varieme ligo, einai arga 2am alla mbenw sto PS ligo na dw ena filo pou pezei mtt. Ginete eliminated alla vlepw ena pexti pou thewrw adinato na perimenei action hu sto $40-80 8-game, kai kathomai ligaki. Prolavenw na tou parw 600-700$ prin erthoun alloi 2 tipoi sto trapezi, kai meta apo ligo e3afanizete o arxikos pextis apo to trapezi. Arxizei NL kai lew ante afou efige kai autos kai eimai kourasmenos, time to go. Kanw sit out, kai arxizei na grafei sto chat enas apo tous allous dio pextes o 'DumpingKGB' oti lol kai oloi fovonte na ton pe3oun NL, kai oti einai paranomo na feugeis gia na apofigeis ena game. Den kratieme kai egw o malakas, tou apantaw lol file pou nomizeis oti se fovame, kai an thes se pezw twra 4 trapezia NL pou sou aresei se 25-50$. Na pw oti to buyin sto 40-80mixed einai $2k, kai den ton eixa dei pote se psila trapezia opotan pisteva oti to na ton prokalesw se match me $20k starting tha ton ekane na mbei stin thesi tou kai tha pigena gia upno. Ela pou telika einai HSNL reg kai giauto ta egrafe auta. I'm sitting mou leei kai ton vlepw oti kathete $25/50 se 2 trapezia. Pou emble3a teties ores skeftomai, alla den mou erxotan na figw me to kefali skimmeno, kathomai loipon sta 2trapezia. Na pw oti exw poly autopepithisi se ola ta games, mazi kai to NL, kai eidika HU pou exw pe3ei kai poli psilotera apo $25/50 san meros 8game i 7game. Den exw pe3ei ton teleutaio xrono omws high stakes NLHU se cash (to pio kontino einai 2k husngs alla akomi kai stin arxi ekeina einai pio liga ta blind depths), kai o antipalos apo tin arxi me ekane 3bet aneleita pragmatika, sigoura pano apo 35%. Mbenan loipon $1100 preflop sxedon kathe hand (150->550 3bet) kai parolo pou pezw konta sto game theory optimal itan profanes oti den tha itan katholou diskolo na ftasoume se 5-10buyin swing me auto to styl se xrono miden. Kourasmenos pou eimoun loipon kai xwris poli ore3i na tou arxisw 4bet sta $1100 me diafora junk, mou itan profanes oti den itan i kalitera wra na pezw se ena tetio game pou den eimoun toso anetos, kai eixa kanei lathos na kathisw. Parallila tou pira ena megalo hand sto ena trapezi, kai sto allo ton ekana sxedon stack (me ekane 3bet me QJh, ekana call me A8h. Flop AQ3, check-check to flop, kai tou kanw 2 megala bets turn/river kai plironei kai ta dio). Ntrepomoun na figw afou ton eixa kanei kai challenge alla lew den peirazei kalitera ligi ntropi para na sinexisw na pezw se lathos game, kanw sit out me mia dikaiologia oti pezw polla trapezia sto full tilt kai den prolavenw (lol) kai tin skaw. Lol kai fisika arxise na vrizei o filos pou vrethike hit-and-runned. Poso malakia itan auto pou ekana kai apo tin stigmi pou tou ekana tin mblofa challange kai dextike pws nomizete eprepe na to xeirosto kalitera?

Aekara1921, se katalavenw kai egw, exw perasei tetoies meres sto parelthon. To provlima estiazei apo to na min dexete eukola to mualo mas tin itta, kai otan ktipisoume kapio arnitiko variance se kapoia atixes stigmi (e.g. opws esi piges proti fora na pe3eis psilotera), erxete i tasi gia grigoro kerdos kai traviomaste sta pio megala paixnidia. Mborei na petixei tin proti fora, alla auto kai mono mas entharinei na to kanoume kai tin epomeni fora kai i katastrofi tou bankroll einai anapofeuktei. Opotan auto pou niwtheis kai epathes mborw na sou pw oti einai anthropino entelos, kai malista to exoun pathoi para polloi. Palia pou asxolithika me husngs apo periergia mia mera ekana sharkscope na dw epitelous pioi itan autoi pou pezane me tous regs sta $500+ buy ins. Kai ektos apo kapoia random psaria, tis perissoteres fores itan kapios pou itan winner se megalo sample alla se poli poli mikrotera stakes, kai profanos eixe tiltarei ekeini tin stigmi. Ektos apo tin klasi tou allou exei kai to tilt sto meros tou.. pos na vgeis zontanos apo ekei mesa. Auto pou prepei na ginei einai oti parolo pou to mualo mas niothei pio iremo na vlepei na mikres nikes stathera para metries nikes kai ligo pio mikres ittes, prepei na dektoume oti ETSI einai i fisiki diakimansi tou pexnidiou kai na tin sinithisei to mualo mas. Diladi den prepei na skeftomaste oti simera exw doulepsei grindarontas 6 wres kai plirothika -$180 opotan doulepsa gia -$30 tin wra. Oute oti me auta pou exasa simera xathikan ta kerdi pou evgala gia 4 meres. Gia na einai iremo to mualo prepei na skeftese gia ta apotelesmata sou mono makroxronia. Oso gia husngs sigkekrimena, to lew stous filous mou pou theloun na asxolounte me auta oti einai i morfi tou poker pou einai i pio epikindini na se kanei tilt logo tis prosopikis morfis tou pexnidiou (1 vs 1 kai an sou pesei enas tixeros malakas den masiete eukola, eidika an einai aggro kai vgoun kai viologika enstikta oti mas pezei ton alpha-dog o allos ktl). Apo tin alli uparxoun winning players pou exoun grindarei polla sta husng xwris na pe3oun kai kana fovero poker, epeidi einai poly weak ta fields xamila. Den 3erw an xriazese 3 oloklirous mines twra alla sigoura kapio break einai kalo na katharisei to mualo, toulaxisto kapoies vdomades meta apo kati tetio. Den pistevo oti prepei na stamatiseis na asxolise me to poker, ektos kai an deis oti den mboreis na eleg3eis ton eauto sou me tipota. Alla den mou fenese tetio stul, eidika pou sou irthe amesos na kaneis autoapoklismo kai auto to post, niwthw oti mboreis na matheis apo auto gia tin epomeni fora, kai na kaneis 3ana rebuild alla to simantiko: siga-siga, kai prepei na 3exasoume posa eixame palia gia na ta 3eperasoume sto mellon allios tha travixtoume se lathos game selection.

Apla oi perissoteroi pextes den exoun kanei adjust to looseness tous ston ivey. Ekeinoi pou einai pio loose opws o Hansen ta pane kala me ton ivey..

Se diaxirisi bookikou (allios praxtorio stoiximatwn gia tous filous ellines) Μαλέκκος #1, Maradona #2, Pele mallon den exei kan bookiko.

E profanos i apantisi einai kai nai kai oxi. Profanos kapoia pragmata ta kanei poly lathos, alla apo tin alli auto simenei oti exei kai kapoia mystika.. auta thelw na mathw!

Ase ton Bagatov kai vale kialo Ari Gold!

Egw thelw o zisimos na mas pei gia ta thrilika husngs pou epe3e fetos kai na mas pei kana tip

Nai ekei diale3e lathos spot sigoura. Einai high stakes online player, pezei 100/200 sto stars me nick good2cu, pezei kai sto FT. An theleis na matheis ligo gia ton pexti des edw: http://robustothemovie.com/

Pezei pio sfikta apo tous allous, enta3ei den einai toso anetos ekei alla oute eimai convinced oti einai -ev sto trapezi aparetita. Genika oi alloi to parakanoun ligo me to looseness tous preflop.

NeoEllinas έγραψε: Euge NeoEllina. Mono o Ari Gold sozei to thread plewn..

gsbets έγραψε: αυτο δε μπορει να γινει σε turbo sng. εκτος και αν το δειγμα ειναι τοσο μεγαλο , που δε φαινεται στο graph το downswing. ty sicksick and imbecile[/quote:2uf733mz] Kai egw auto nomizw oti apla den fenete, den uparxoun eutheies grammes stin pragmatikotita. Ti account ennoeis, gia husng?

gsbets www.husng.com an kaneis rakeback account gia kainourio site perneis dorean membership

Ton vladan den ton 3erw katholou gia na pw polla, alla eipa oti afou exei kali embiria apo limit auto einai simantiko epeidi den einai polloi pou 3eroun limit. Oso gia to PLO, den 3erw ta results tou kathenos kai genika tournoua uparxoun polu liga (mono o miltos ta girevei na ta pe3ei apoti 3erw). Kai autoi oi mbombolines2197 ktl o logos pou kerdizoun diaforous titlous einai oti uparxoun tosoi polloi sto field pou kai 1/2 chance na exoun apo tous kalous pextes, ama einai 10% kaloi kai 90% vatraxia44 tote sixna tha kerdisei to vatraxi. Den simenei oti giauto einai kalitera na mbenoun se mia omada apo enan kalo.

To oti einai omada poker.gr kai oxi ethniki, auto den to antileei oute ena atomo kai egine kourastiko na epanalamvanete toses fores. To na einai o Fasoladas kai o Vasilakis kaliteroi apo tous allous dio einai uperano sxoliasis. Kai an prose3es kala, to tournoua einai plo, limit, kai nl mazi. (Kai btw, auto pou nomizoun polloi nl players oti mboroun oloi tous na pe3oun limit kai oti enai eukolo pexnidi pou apla den mboreis na kaneis mblofes, kanoun terastio lathos, einai apo ta diskolotera pexnidia). Opotan drasen, an epimeneis sto sxolio sou oti einai Kapalas + TIPOTA, se parakalo pes mou enan (1) pexti ellina pou einai apodedigmena kaliteros se nl+plo+lim apo ton dr@m@. Kai ellina oxi apo Athens, Georgia (min mou peis kana yellowsub86)

lol mou aresei i ataka pantos